080707 Monday “Back To Work”

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 In Daily Workout

+++ NO 06:00H CLASS ON MONDAY, JULY 7!! +++

moisesoh.jpg

Moises at the top of a push press. Moises should be one of our competitors for the CF Games in 2009.

Thank you, Josh, Rick, Darren, Stav and Carry for STEPPING UP and representing Diablo CrossFit this weekend. What an amazing weekend with some great stories to tell.

See all the results here: CrossFit Games

Monday Workout: “Sunday’s Pain”

30 Clean & Jerks, 155lbs (ladies, 100lbs).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Congratulations to our friends at CrossFit Oakland, who took the Affiliate Cup at the Games.

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  • sakura

    it was great to see everyone there. stellar performance! definitely a great motivator–going to the games. hope recovery is quick for all those who competed. =]

    sakura

  • Craig

    Here’s something to ponder.

    When I look at the winners of the CrossFit games, specifically their body compositions – men and women, I am left wondering the following:

    How much of their success at the Games is attributable to CrossFit training versus their previous style of training?

  • Chris

    First time posting!

    First, congrats to everyone from DCF who stepped up and competed!

    I think Craig brings up an excellent point. I think from looking at this years events that the all favored a competitor with a certain type of training background. Certainly performance may be improved tremendously through CrossFit training, but in no way would ensure the ability to be competitive at the elite CrossFit level. IMO an athlete with a previous background in strength/endurance sports would be at greatest advantage. For example, a high level wrestler would be a natural candidate for success. Whereas a world class miler or olympic lifter would be good at certain components, but would have to train very hard to overcome their obvious deficits in the strength/endurance components respectively. The wrestler would just have to improve on exactly what he is already been training for.

    When I brought out my buddy for a CrossFit workout (who wrestled in college), I thought he would perform well, but I admit I was impressed by his performance (don’t tell him that). I think he posted the second best Newbie time AFTER we did the WOD. He was also first to complete the WOD. Stavros was there that day.

    Craig’s comments kind of got me to thinking as whether or not the WODs are the absolute best way to improve CF performance. Maybe focusing on our individual CF weaknesses would improve our WODs more?

    Taking myself as an example:
    Strength: Power
    Weakness: muscle endurance, cardio endurance

    IF I wanted maximum improvement in CF results I should probably abandon my OLY training and start going to the track for some running workouts and focusing on higher reps when weight training.

    What do you guys think?

  • Chris

    First time posting!

    First, congrats to everyone from DCF who stepped up and competed!

    I think Craig brings up an excellent point. I think from looking at this years events that the all favored a competitor with a certain type of training background. Certainly performance may be improved tremendously through CrossFit training, but in no way would ensure the ability to be competitive at the elite CrossFit level. IMO an athlete with a previous background in strength/endurance sports would be at greatest advantage. For example, a high level wrestler would be a natural candidate for success. Whereas a world class miler or olympic lifter would be good at certain components, but would have to train very hard to overcome their obvious deficits in the strength/endurance components respectively. The wrestler would just have to improve on exactly what he is already been training for.

    When I brought out my buddy for a CrossFit workout (who wrestled in college), I thought he would perform well, but I admit I was impressed by his performance (don’t tell him that). I think he posted the second best Newbie time AFTER we did the WOD. He was also first to complete the WOD. Stavros was there that day.

    Craig’s comments kind of got me to thinking as whether or not the WODs are the absolute best way to improve CF performance. Maybe focusing on our individual CF weaknesses would improve our WODs more?

    Taking myself as an example:
    Strength: Power
    Weakness: muscle endurance, cardio endurance

    IF I wanted maximum improvement in CF results I should probably abandon my OLY training and start going to the track for some running workouts and focusing on higher reps when weight training.

    What do you guys think?

  • Stavros

    Chris,

    Funny you bring this points up. We (Mike E, Mike M, and myself) has similar conversations on the way home. I really think these particular WOD’s played in to a “strength” oriented athlete, i.e. Khalipa. Although you had to do well in all the events, having a solid strength training background helped.

    One of the major things I took from the games is that I need to get stronger, oh, and not rip all the skin off my hands. This year needs to be about heavier reps, and form. I feel that my metcon workouts are good (not great, but good starting point), but when it comes to a heavy lift, I suffer. Although a fairly decent injury prevented me from performing to what I KNOW I could do, I still got a great feel for where I’m at as an athlete. To be honest, I’m happy, but not satisfied.

    DCF can, and will step up to the plate for next years games. We can win the affiliate cup as well as place a number of athletes in the top tier. I know I have my work cutout for me, but look forward to the journey. Thanks for the conversation-starting post. We’ll definitely keep this one going.

    Strong work at the games DCF’ers, we represented even if the WOD’s didn’t go how we wanted. Crossfit knows who we are.

  • Mark L.

    Crossfit is about non-specific general physical preparedness fitness. BROAD TIME AND MODAL DOMAINS.
    The games was a perfect example of how specialization can help you, but ONLY if the perfect situation comes up. We do NOT know what life (or the games) are going to throw at us. There is no guarantee what we run into will be a balanced environment (again, just like life).
    Spieler, for example, was WAY ahead of the competition after the more strength endurance and endurance events like Fran/Deadlifts and 750m hill run, but with the final event favoring the HUGE and POWERFUL, Jason Khalipa (who definitely was training in a more focused way for this final event) took the cake… quite by accident, though (what a lucky draw for Jason!).
    Would Spieler have won if the final event was something like Annie or 5K run? I would guess the answer is an unquestionable “yes”. To Craig’s question, does previous specialization help us in certain situations? DEFINITELY… but we never know what we might need our bodies for, so there’s not much of an action item there.
    I think the REAL question is “what are we doing Crossfit for, anyway”?
    Crossfit is about “being ready for anything”. It’s a style of training that fills in our gaps by varying WOD focus wildly (in addition to our other external sports/life participation).
    As to Chris’ point, we should be spending our focus days working on those weak points… until something else becomes our weak point. Should we keep our strengths our strengths? Definitely, but we also need to make sure we’re not overtraining.
    WODs are great because (we hope) they are varied enough to keep us working on the whole curve of adaptation in our work capacity (from 1 rep to 5K run).
    There is no finish line in Crossfit. We NEVER arrive.
    (all of this is IMHO)

    Anyway, I had a great time at the games, and I’m looking forward to getting back in the shed late this week. I’m FINALLY cancelling my globo-gym membership. All I ever used there is the treadmill, anyway. 😎 You’ll be seeing more of me.

  • Darren

    I def. agree that past training helps in your CF workouts. If you look at where the competitors from DCF placed (all of whom had minimal Elite fitness trainig before CF). I myself Did alot of classic man workouts at 24 hr fitness. (lots of bench press and curls. And it shows in my workouts.

    Strengths: overhead press
    weakness: Legs

    I think I will be focusing on an increase of power and strength. I felt my cardio was fine during the events over the weekend but my power out put would fade. It isn’t that hard to get “Lungs” but takes alot of hard work to increase stregth.

    BTW my legs are probably the sorest they have ever been.

  • Mark L.

    Darren, by the way, had some of the best burpies in the whole field!

  • Darren

    Post from Rob Wolf on main page.
    I saw his client, Smaller guy, who came out of no where. He was a beast.

    “We fielded 2 athletes, Nicki and our guy Dr. John Fragoso. John is 165lbs, has a 480lb DL, 205 standing press and 445 BS. He has about as good strength numbers as a person can have but we have only had him for 6 solid months to build the metabolic engine to excel at an event like this. He took 26th place which is phenomenal, and he is fired up to be back next year and it will be scary what he can do. The point I’d like to make is no one 1RM’d themselves to a victory here…that strength base is critical to success, but not the guarantor of success. Would a different WO selection have produced a different winner? Almost certainly, but that’s not what came out of the hopper! What I think is telling is NO ONE, not the film crew, not the HQ staff, not the crowd, had ANY idea that relative unknowns would catapult to the lead and win both the male and female division. THAT is CrossFit. It’s interesting to note that Josh Everett was being coached through his WO based on beating Speal…the lack of awareness on everyones part that a monster in the back row was tearing through the event might have cost Josh the victory IMO…but that’s just more idle speculation. On those days, given those events we have our champions.”

  • Craig

    Nature doesn’t adjust for bodyweight.

    Love Rob’s last line: “given those events, we have our champions.”

  • J Jones

    Robb makes good points. I feel the same way: On those days, using those events, these are the best athletes.

    You can even look at the order of our own competitors. I think we all expected Jorgy and Rick to vie for the No. 1 spot (with Stav and Darren following very close behind). The last blow the hopper dealt was definitely favorable to the larger guys. Jeremy Theil wasn’t even in the top 10, but his ‘Fat Grace’ score got him back on the podium.

    As far as the comments regarding athletic background and/or genetics. . . It has been observed by many CF coaches that people with a heavy strength back ground do much better a CF sooner (like Robb’s comments above). Strength (and power) take the longest to build. Cardio Respiratory Endurance and even Muscle Stamina can be built up relatively quickly. It was actually this observation that brought a lot more strength based WODs (3×10, 5×5, etc) to the CF mainpage.

    Basically it is relatively easy to take a strong person and give them endurance, but it is harder to take an endurance person and make them strong.

    This is why I lean a little more toward making people scale on the heavy side, but do less reps. I don’t care if they can do 200 jumping pull ups in a row if they can’t do a single regular pull up. Make them use the band and only do half of the prescribed reps. Get them strong first, (more) endurance later.

    -jj

  • Mike Erickson

    I understood the weights for the daily wods were based on a “nominal” experienced crossfitter, i.e. for males ~175lbs. Thus, 225 for deadlift wods, 135 for Grace. Somehow those weights were chosen as appropriate across the wide range of male bodyweights and sizes. A smaller person can accomplish the workout at those weights albeit slower than a much larger person. I would have liked to have seen the games DL weight be 225 and the CJ weight be 135. I don’t see how it could possibly be unfair to the big guys. I am possibly biased because of being so disappointed by Speal dropping to tenth place. I think Speal is the perfect crossfitter, daily WOD only. If the daily WODs have any meaning towards our measuring and achieving total fitness comparable across all sizes and bodytypes the competitions should be based on them as well. I think Speal is the most fit person in crossfit and he proved it this weekend. At his size and the day after doing an outstanding DL/burpee WOD (with more than twice his bodyweight for the DL) doing Grace with 155 lbs in less than 7 1/2 minutes has to be the most phenomenal athletic performance I’ve ever seen. Jason Kalida is a CF beginner (6 months?). I think the Sunday WOD was a gift though he certainly would have improved his time with 20 lbs less weight. He is awesome, I agree. I like his enthusiasm and I’m sure next year he will be even more awesome.

  • sarah

    The girls did Fran today….I forgot to get the times before i left! D’OH!

    Jamie and Michelle went first and were both under 7 mins. Made it look easy. Michelle did her first set of thrusters w the #45 bar while Jamie rocked #35 and threw in jumping pull ups. Paula and Jasmine were next, both sporting #45 thrusters! Jaz did band pu and Paula did jumping. They were both under 8mins. As for me…..Im going for rx. did #65 thrusters( phew!!)and about 21 kipping pullups(not in a row and who do i talk to about blisters on the hands…Stav?? Hahaha!)the rest were jumping. Under 11 min.

    Congrats to outstanding athletes who competed in the games! You are an insiration to us all!

    I will compete nxt year.

    JJ- thx for the shirt!! Very cool and yes, strong is beautiful!!

  • Mark L.

    Apparently, Rob Wolf read MY blog. 😎
    As I was thumbing through the results, I noticed that the “team standings” results had multiple females listed, and it made me think. Is there a certain qualification you have to meet to compete as a team, or do they simply average all your affiliate’s individual times and multiply by 5 (my eyeball estimate)?
    If so, we definitely need to figure out who’s competing, who are the athletes at the bottom of the list, and get THEM up to speed. 😎
    (I would include myself in that “bottom” tier)

  • Craig

    Mark, the affiliate competition qualification is posted on the affiliate site (at least two men & two women).

    Our mission at DCF posted on our website: To make our clients fit way beyond their expectations by sharing and transferring our knowledge of, and passion for fitness.

    Our “hidden” mission: “to create a cool place to workout with like-minded individuals.”

    It’s awesome that some of our clients competed in the Games and have the potential to succeed.

    But, DCF is not about identifying and grooming athletes for CF competitions. If thats what you or other clients want to do – awesome, let us help.

    Otherwise, lets get back to some great wods together.

    On that note: Nice work, Sarah! Oh so close to full rx Fran.

  • Chris

    All good comments. My next question would be how can we modify our training protocol to increase out CF performance? In some ways I don’t think that doing the WOD everyday is optimal for CF fitness. IMO its not quite structured enough.( correct me if I’m wrong) Some of you may think that this lack of routine is exactly what makes CF unique.

    I’m not saying to eliminate the WOD. Rather, use the WODs as benchmarks of progress which we already do. So my idea would be for someone like Darren who wants to focus more on STRENGTH/POWER:

    Mon: Strength/Power (oly wl):med intensity
    Tues:WODwith a focus on muscle endurance/skill development
    – by this I mean developing thrusters, pullups, ball slams, wall balls etc.
    Wed: Strength/Power (OLY WL): light intensity
    Thurs:WOD with a cardio focus
    -by this I mean double unders, rowing, running etc…
    Fri:Strength/Power(OLY WL): Heavy intensity
    Sat:WOD
    Sun: off

    I think this type of schedule would allow someone to focus on their weaknesses while maintaining their strengths. My guess is that this would allow someone to improve their WOD times/scores more rapidly than by just following the main page WOD since everyone has different strengths/weaknesses/goals.

  • RUINER, SSGT, USAF

    Chris, I think…you’re over thinking this. it’s been mentioned in the past that crossfit is aimed at Broad General and Inclusive fitness. Generating increased work capacity over broad time and modal domains. It’s as simple and as complicated as that.
    Now, the beauty of crossfit is you don’t have to do the WOD as RX. EG diane. No one is putting a gun to my head and making me do it at 225. I can scale up just as easily to increase strength while still holding the intensity. In the end we alone are responsible for our fitness.
    Not Craig, not JJ, not Coach or Robb Wolf.
    It’s our asses on the line if we can’t rise to the occasion and if we are intimately aware of our weaknesses it’s our responsibility to shore up those weaknesses.

  • J Jones

    Chris, you have hinted at one slight issue that many people see with the CF mainpage workouts: That doing the WODs as RXed only, isn’t necessarily the fastest way to get everyone in the best shape. That being said. . . It is pretty damn close. I mean it is kind of hard to argue with performances like Speal, OPT, etc that only do the mainpage workouts as RXed.

    That being said, I feel that for some people a little ‘scaling up’ of the workouts is in order to shore up any weaknesses that they might have. I suspect that the smaller guys have this effect built in because the weights are a larger part of their bodyweight. For example Speal weighs 135, but he does the WODs as RXed That means he is strong enough to do something like Diane at 225. Now when it comes time to do a movement with just his bodyweight, that strength has A LOT more of an impact, than someone who weighs 225 themselves.

    What does that mean? It is a theory I have been working on for a while, but basically it means ‘go heavy’. Do the WODs with the weight vest. Scale up all the weights. Cut total reps, and use weights that induce more muscle failure before oxygen debt. Jorgy and Rick have just proven this works wonders with the 2pood kettle bell. I am proposing that we do it with everything.

    As far as the programming goes. . . I do believe that the 3 on 1 off schedule is probably about as good as you can get when it comes to training the largest amount of people possible. 5 on 2 off is still good, but probably not the best for every case (although MUCH easier to implement). I DO like your alternating of med, light, heavy strength days with muscle endurance and pure cardio resp, especially for someone looking to build strength.

    Regarding Mike’s comments. You’re point is valid. He is an amazing athlete that got somewhat punished because of his size. But I also see it from the perspective of a big guy. The range of motion is much farther for someone who is tall, and the bodyweight stuff is much harder for someone heavy. For the most part, the only exercise that really benefits the tall heavy guy and gives nothing up to the little guy is rowing. Everything else has it’s trade offs.

    If you compare the weights of the guys in the top 10, it is quite a wide range. I believe that this is a testament to the efficacy of CrossFit. In what other sport can you have a 135lb competitor, a 235 lb competitor (and everything in between) in the top 10?

    -jj

  • RUINER, SSGT, USAF

    Oh yeah, Craig, “cut the stretcher in half”. That shit was funny, I had a feeling that you were the CraigH that posted that.

  • RUINER, SSGT, USAF

    Pappas, Kallista A
    00:07:51==Thruster/Pullup
    00:05:53==Deadlift/Burpee
    00:04:52==Run
    00:10:47==Clean and Jerk
    00:29:23==Total
    Placed 25 of 91 female athletes.
    14 years old? Maybe 100lbs?
    Definately bad ass. Biased towards heavy guys…I think not. We need to train harder.

  • Mark L.

    Chris,
    Mike is right.
    I totally hear you, though. This is one of the hardest things I had to get over when converting to the Crossfit “doctrine” of fitness. In all my years studying fitness science, periodization is probably one of the biggest things to come out of the last 40 years, and it is now applied to almost all sports. Where is it in Crossfit? It’s absent. Did they forget it? No; it’s an intentional deletion.
    It’s really deleted simply to keep that adaptive response from becoming specific to any kind of fitness either time based or calendar based.
    As a soldier, firefighter or policeman, you’re not sure if you’re going to have to chase a suspect for 1.5 miles, lift your bodyweight (with all your gear), or lift a big ‘ol fat guy out of a burning building (then do it again 3 times). We know (from science) that focusing heavily on one kind of fitness causes your body to move in that direction (and away from others). Crossfit doesn’t want that, and it is deliberate about avoiding it.
    Crossfit is about no particular kind of fitness, and, at the same time, is about all particular kinds of fitness.
    That said, individuals are different. As Craig pointed out, some people have an “overage” in certain areas (either due to past focused training or genetic gifting), but are deficient in others.
    Crossfit does leave room for handling this problem in their theory of “focus days” and training for “sports specific” stuff.
    While they sometimes appear to say “you can do it all with just the WOD”, they also leave deliberate room for filling in the gaps in the written materials (and journals) describing programming.
    You could definitely interleave programming like you’ve provided into the plan, but I would just be careful to listen to your body, so you don’t short yourself on recovery (and be ready to scale quickly if you see sleeplessness or elevated resting heart rate, etc.).
    Jeremy’s comments are very interesting… I am going to think about that.
    BTW: Getting ready for Annie at 4,100 feet…
    Craig prescribed 3 metcons a week for me, so I can get my performance up. I’m starting today!

  • Luca Z.lll

    Wow I don’t check the posting for a day and look at this, Chris is posting TWICE, nice man, great infos from all, but the bottom line is, if you’re strong at the lifts, DL, CLEAN, PRESSES,… you’re going to do well at the games, I guess a Black Box approach to the all thing should be the way to go, maybe with a strength and metcon wod on the same day, always on a 3 on 1 off schedule. By the way congratulations to all of our athletes, all off you represented the Shed well, it was fun to be there and watching, all of you, perform.

  • Craig

    Yup, Mike. I post as CraigH on the main. Good catch.

    I admit I cracked myself up on that one.

  • Craig

    Mike, I love this comment:

    “It’s our asses on the line if we can’t rise to the occasion and if we are intimately aware of our weaknesses it’s our responsibility to shore up those weaknesses.”

    This is DCF. You are responsible for you.

    You have all heard me say this: “we are not motivational coaches for the apathetic.” We don’t care what you look like or what you wear. But if you give your all, we’ll be right there with you and congratulating you after.

    Chris, I like your idea of programming – with less structure. I’ll likely tweak my programming to shore up my weaknesses.

  • J Jones - Diablo CrossFit

    I went into the mainpage comments to find out what Mike and Craig were talking about. Funny stuff.

    From now on, whenever we post on another blog, we have got to ‘claim’ “Diablo CrossFit” like Stav did on Kallista’s post

    “Stavros – Diablo CrossFit”

    I plan on posting as “JJones – Diablo CrossFit”.

    Now that we had the big showing at the games, we are going to have to back it up with letting people know online ‘who we be’.

    -jj

  • J Jones - Diablo CrossFit

    And this is what I posted regarding the discussion regarding ‘scaling’:

    “As far as the scaling goes. . . I am 6’4”. I want scaling for tall people, or a tall person “class”. Maybe partial reps, or just less reps because my arms and legs are longer.

    While we are at it, I weigh 210, so it would be nice to be able to do less reps with body weight stuff because I weigh so much. I know. . . I’ll do partial rep pull ups with bands assisting. That should make it ‘fair’.”

    -jj

  • Mike Erickson

    JJ,
    I’m not convinced that big guys are disadvantaged by being big w/ respect to body weight exercises. Longer limbs and bigger range of motion is an advantage in running, i.e.: more distance per stride, fewer strides for any given distance. In climbing events, again more reach is an advantage, fewer strides up a rope for instance. For push-ups, pull-ups, etc. Remember, these are functional movements. If we’re going to get our asses off the ground we have to get our asses off the ground, big or small. I think we are all pretty much equal in the potential for strength to body weight ratio. And mechanically our body’s work pretty much the same, relative lengths of levers, mechanical advantage etc. I think “big” guys just don’t develop their strength to the same degree as “little” guys because they usually don’t have “REALLY BIG” guys they feel they have to compete against. I’ve always thought (until crossfit) big guys were a little lazy. Little guys (like me) will KILL themselves trying to get stronger, big guys say “I’m strong enough” too easily. I don’t see any physiological reason big men are ever at a disadvantage in any athletic contest.

  • J Jones - Diablo CrossFit

    First, we have to make a distinction: Height vs Weight vs Strength. Height being correlated with distance a mass is moved, center of mass or external mass included. Weight is bodyweight and is only related to center of mass. Strength would just be force generation. Height and weight are usually correlated. Strength and weight are usually correlated. Height and strength are not directly correlated.

    Just so you know longer limbs are not proven to benefit in running. Sprinters are usually of average height and marathon runners are usually shorter than average. If height were a factor, all runners (short or long distance) would be much taller than average. Regarding stride length and number of steps, you should check out the CrossFit Endurance and POSE Running stuff.

    For climbing events, reach is an advantage, but by the whole strength to weight ratio is more important (again by looking at elite climbers, few are above average height, and zero are ‘heavy’).

    There are movements that benefit the tall and the heavy, rowing is one. Because gravity is not part of the work, weight does not matter. Length of stroke (height) is very important (especially over longer distances), and strength is the most important over the shorter distances.

    Other ‘height friendly’ movements might be lunges for distance, rope climbs, throwing things. . .and a few more (not many).

    For the most part, all the movements in CF there is no reward for height. In fact, I believe the scales are tipped slightly in favor of a shorter athlete. Because the range of motion standards are set by body mechanics, a taller person will always have to go farther. In any cyclic movement (from push ups, to kb swings, to back squats, etc) this change in distance equals more time. Time almost exclusively the measure of performance for CF. If ACTUAL power output was measured. . .the taller athlete using the same weights will have done more work – But this is not easily measured or defined (except on something like a cable machine or a rower). Therefore two athletes weighing the same, using the same weights but doing different distances means that if they finish in the same time, the taller athlete will have done ‘more’. Even though the clock says they ‘tied’.

    As far as potential for strength to bodyweight ratios, shorter and lighter people have the advantage. This is evident in Olympic Weightlifters with men vs women, or lightweights vs heavyweights. The women and the smaller lifters have a much higher strength to weight ratio (the smaller athletes routinely C&J 2.8x their bodyweight, where a 2.1x bw C&J for a larger athlete is the norm).

    What does all of this mean? The best CFer (and arguably the best athlete) will not have excessive height, or his other capacities will have to be well over what a shorter athlete’s will need to be. The best CFer will not have excessive body mass, or his other capacities (namely strength) will have to well over what a lighter athlete’s will need to be. The best CFer will not have excessive strength, if having that strength demands too much body mass and height to carry it around.

    So basically you need someone who is average to short, who is as strong as humanly possible for their height and weight. No extremes either way (other than ‘extremely F’ing strong for their size’).

    All that being said. . . real life, other sports, combat, etc. usually favor a taller, stronger athlete. A simple look at the sports that do not have weight classes to see that (Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc). These sports are dominated by larger athletes. I do not know that height, weight and strength (at the sacrifice of additional body mass) will ever be demanded of CrossFitters.

    Now this has turned into a post much longer than anticipated, and I have been interupted too many times to maintain a train of thought. I am going to end it here and hope I made some point. . . to someone. . .

    -jj